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Topic : Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment
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 DrMooman 
Set
Reg. Date : 09/08/2016
Posts : 73
Location : Wales, Wales, United Kingdom
Posted : 28 Oct 2017 - 19:53   Post title : Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment
 
Hi all

I'm about to embark on inspecting and possibly adjusting the Shims for the valves over the winter. This is the biggest project i've done, so i'm a little nervous/excited.

I've read this thread Link

I've watched all of these on you tube Link
I've got the triumph service manual.

I've got my gas heater out for the garage, i've ordered all the tools and supplies. I've written out a draft for my DIYThunderbird instructions to follow.

So...... any last words of advice from those of you that have actually done this before?







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 peteronkarra 
Chaac
Reg. Date : 01/04/2012
Posts : 829
Location : Karragarra Island, Queensland, Australia
Posted : 28 Oct 2017 - 21:27   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: DrMooman)
 
The only things I would add.
Leave the spark plugs in until the cam cover is removed and put them back in before it goes back on.
When fitting the timing pin make sure the timing marks on the cams are at the top. It doesn't really matter if they are 180 degrees out but it gives you a bit of confidence that you have them in the right place when you put it back together.
Take photos of the arrangement of the cables and wiring under the tank before you pull anything apart.
Even the fuel hose and wiring position under the tank. If you get it wrong putting it back together you can crush wires
The videos are excellent.
Don't be tempted to do without the rotor locking tool, it is possible to just put the bike in gear and stand on the back brake to lock the engine. BUT you will most likely damage the torque compensator on the crank and end up with a clunk on startup.

 
I sometimes wonder what I"ll do when I grow up.... but not very often
Post edited by peteronkarra on 28 Oct 2017 - 21:33
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 Leethal 
Zeus
Reg. Date : 24/01/2011
Posts : 6,407
Location :  Australia
Posted : 28 Oct 2017 - 21:51   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: peteronkarra)
 
Pete has covered it well

When lining up the timing pin you will have to ( unless you are extremely lucky) keep turning over the engine for what seems like ages, it will happen, and when it does the pin goes in quite firmly, ALL the way to the shoulder.

 
Experience is something you get just after you needed it
1600,Foran Razorbacks, Meerkat bypass, Dyno tune, real headlight,plenty of chrome,switchblade pegs, Hagon Nitro shocks & Ikon progressive fork springs etc. Scorpion Western Low handlebars. PH adjustable fork caps.
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 Linkdog 
Thor
Reg. Date : 10/02/2011
Posts : 2,923
Location : Groveland, FL., United States
Posted : 28 Oct 2017 - 21:53   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: peteronkarra)
 
Leethal has done this a number of times and is a wealth of knowledge

 
Never drink from a cow with one udder! 2010 1600 Blue&White ( of course ) Long TORS and HP filter.
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 rayglo 
Jupiter
Reg. Date : 27/10/2012
Posts : 1,746
Location : east brunswick, nj, United States
Posted : 29 Oct 2017 - 05:15   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: peteronkarra)
 
Out of curiosity Peteronkarra, why dose one leave the plugs in when removing cam cover. Do you leave the plug boots intact also? Is it a step to keep the wiring in order?
~thanks, cheers, ray

 Author 
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 peteronkarra 
Chaac
Reg. Date : 01/04/2012
Posts : 829
Location : Karragarra Island, Queensland, Australia
Posted : 29 Oct 2017 - 06:20   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: rayglo)
 
Take the coils off but leave the plugs in until the cam cover is removed. It is soooo much easier to get the plugs out. Especially the left outer.

 
I sometimes wonder what I"ll do when I grow up.... but not very often
 Author 
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 Leethal 
Zeus
Reg. Date : 24/01/2011
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Posted : 29 Oct 2017 - 07:13   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: peteronkarra)
 
Agree 100%.

 
Experience is something you get just after you needed it
1600,Foran Razorbacks, Meerkat bypass, Dyno tune, real headlight,plenty of chrome,switchblade pegs, Hagon Nitro shocks & Ikon progressive fork springs etc. Scorpion Western Low handlebars. PH adjustable fork caps.
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 DrMooman 
Set
Reg. Date : 09/08/2016
Posts : 73
Location : Wales, Wales, United Kingdom
Posted : 29 Oct 2017 - 13:24   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: peteronkarra)
 
I do have a clunk on startup- almost every time. I thought it was maybe to do with the cold and the oil sticking, but maybe it is that. I will look into it.

Thanks for the advice

 Author 
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 DrMooman 
Set
Reg. Date : 09/08/2016
Posts : 73
Location : Wales, Wales, United Kingdom
Posted : 29 Oct 2017 - 13:41   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: DrMooman)
 
Two more questions...

1. have you had to remove the rear brake leaver, or just loosen so it is out of the way?
2. Inspection of the camshaft- the SM says to use a Plastiguage to check the camshaft journal to camshaft ladder clearance- how many of you hav actually done this- as you have to put a bunch of stuff back measure and then off again. Wouldn't this only be necessary if you notice lots of wear and you want to work out if it is too much, which is only likely to happen after many many miles?

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 Linkdog 
Thor
Reg. Date : 10/02/2011
Posts : 2,923
Location : Groveland, FL., United States
Posted : 29 Oct 2017 - 14:27   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: DrMooman)
 
Well, here's the thing about it. If it's out of spec. you need a new head and ladders because there are NO bearings for the cams

 
Never drink from a cow with one udder! 2010 1600 Blue&White ( of course ) Long TORS and HP filter.
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 davetac1 
Thunderbird
Reg. Date : 06/09/2010
Posts : 8,379
Location : Haverhill, Ma., United States
Posted : 29 Oct 2017 - 17:59   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: DrMooman)
 

DrMooman wrote:

I do have a clunk on startup- almost every time. I thought it was maybe to do with the cold and the oil sticking, but maybe it is that. I will look into it.

Thanks for the advice



Define "CLUNK AFTER START UP"!! I only ask because I've never heard any clunking sounds and I'm pushing the 124,000 mile mark. Thank you!! Dave!!!

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 peteronkarra 
Chaac
Reg. Date : 01/04/2012
Posts : 829
Location : Karragarra Island, Queensland, Australia
Posted : 29 Oct 2017 - 19:11   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: DrMooman)
 
I just undo the 2 mounting bolts for the rear brake and push it out of the way. I guess if you have footboards there would be some removal required.
No I've never done the plastigauge thing. Just inspected the cam joirnals and bearing surfaces. If you notice some obvious wear maybe then you would measure. As mentioned above the head would be a total loss at that point if they were out of spec
Something else to note. Once the ladders are torqued down and before the chain goes on, the cams should rotate freely until the lobes contact the followers. If you have any sort of drag recheck your clearances again.

 
I sometimes wonder what I"ll do when I grow up.... but not very often
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 Leethal 
Zeus
Reg. Date : 24/01/2011
Posts : 6,407
Location :  Australia
Posted : 29 Oct 2017 - 22:14   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: DrMooman)
 

DrMooman wrote:

I do have a clunk on startup- almost every time. I thought it was maybe to do with the cold and the oil sticking, but maybe it is that. I will look into it.

Thanks for the advice


The clunk is quite a heavy sound and only happens once on cold start up, rarely happens again until the engine cools down and is started again. Pete and I are sure that it happens when you don't use the long holding bar for the alternator rotor while torqueing up and use the rear brake and gears instead. (this has all been covered before btw) Pretty sure the noise comes from the torque compensator , although having pulled it down and replacing the shims didn't fix the problem, what did fix it was releasing the tension bolt on the rotor and torqueing up using the proper tool. Worked for me anyway. Using the tool ever since when doing valve adjustments and the noise has never returned.

 
Experience is something you get just after you needed it
1600,Foran Razorbacks, Meerkat bypass, Dyno tune, real headlight,plenty of chrome,switchblade pegs, Hagon Nitro shocks & Ikon progressive fork springs etc. Scorpion Western Low handlebars. PH adjustable fork caps.
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 Leethal 
Zeus
Reg. Date : 24/01/2011
Posts : 6,407
Location :  Australia
Posted : 29 Oct 2017 - 22:16   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: davetac1)
 

davetac1 wrote:

DrMooman wrote:

I do have a clunk on startup- almost every time. I thought it was maybe to do with the cold and the oil sticking, but maybe it is that. I will look into it.

Thanks for the advice



Define "CLUNK AFTER START UP"!! I only ask because I've never heard any clunking sounds and I'm pushing the 124,000 mile mark. Thank you!! Dave!!!


Dave you won't have the sound as you have not done your valve clearances, and if you ever did I am sure you would use the correct tools.

 
Experience is something you get just after you needed it
1600,Foran Razorbacks, Meerkat bypass, Dyno tune, real headlight,plenty of chrome,switchblade pegs, Hagon Nitro shocks & Ikon progressive fork springs etc. Scorpion Western Low handlebars. PH adjustable fork caps.
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 daz 
Zeus
Reg. Date : 12/05/2009
Posts : 7,686
Location :  United States
Posted : 29 Oct 2017 - 23:16   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: Leethal)
 
There have been threads about a clunk on startup, does no one recall that? But it had nothing to do with this proceedure, it was just something some people have had and no one ever diagnosed it if i recall correctly. I had it myself. Nasty hard cluck when the engine started to fire like someone just slammed the cylinder head with a hammer. I had it for about a year or 2 intermittently, then it just went away completely about a year ago.

 
2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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 davetac1 
Thunderbird
Reg. Date : 06/09/2010
Posts : 8,379
Location : Haverhill, Ma., United States
Posted : 30 Oct 2017 - 01:16   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: Leethal)
 
I have never heard any clunking sounds since I've owned this machine which is seven and a half years now,while logging on almost 124,000 miles.The only noise I DO hear is those fuckin CAST PISTONS "IF" I do NOT allow the motor to warm up before driving off,and or, if I get on the throttle alittle hard.Other then that,my motor is pretty quiet,not to mention, I have NEVER checked my valve clearances BECAUSE there is NO ticking sounds,NO clacking sounds,the motor has GOOD power,it idles SMOOTH,and my FUEL mileage has always been 48-52.[with a best of 56 mpg which I've achieved on a number of occassions]

Now,if the valves were loose,you'd hear clacking or ticking sounds coming from the top end of the motor,but the motor may or may not run pretty freely,that is,until they became too loose,then damage would be done if not addressed.Hence,if the valves were too tight,the motor would run pretty quiet,but run loogy,like the timing was late,plus the throttle response would NOT be crisp.Well, I have none of those symtons. But then again,I "ALWAYS allow the motor to warm up BEFORE driving off,change my oil every 3-4,000 miles,use ONLY my inferior 15-40 Dino oil,[no synthetic] and I do NOT beat the shit out of it because that's NOT what it's made for as it's a cruiser,not a rice rocket. But that's me and as you guys know,I'm NOT very bright!! Dummy Dave!!!

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 Leethal 
Zeus
Reg. Date : 24/01/2011
Posts : 6,407
Location :  Australia
Posted : 30 Oct 2017 - 08:29   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: daz)
 

daz wrote:

There have been threads about a clunk on startup, does no one recall that? But it had nothing to do with this proceedure, it was just something some people have had and no one ever diagnosed it if i recall correctly. I had it myself. Nasty hard cluck when the engine started to fire like someone just slammed the cylinder head with a hammer. I had it for about a year or 2 intermittently, then it just went away completely about a year ago.


Yes there has been threads, I mentioned that above, if you search clunk on start up it will bring up two.

As far as I am concerned, and I think Peter as well, OUR clunk was caused by what I have mentioned above. Mine was worse than Pete's perhaps because the engine had not done as many kms as his. Using the correct method, it has never returned.

 
Experience is something you get just after you needed it
1600,Foran Razorbacks, Meerkat bypass, Dyno tune, real headlight,plenty of chrome,switchblade pegs, Hagon Nitro shocks & Ikon progressive fork springs etc. Scorpion Western Low handlebars. PH adjustable fork caps.
 Author 
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 Leethal 
Zeus
Reg. Date : 24/01/2011
Posts : 6,407
Location :  Australia
Posted : 30 Oct 2017 - 09:11   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: davetac1)
 
Dave in my opinion you should be hearing ticking sounds from the top end, (you mention that yours is very quiet), the valves, as they wear the seats move upwards, closing the gap between shim and cam lobe. This has been my experience for my last three adjustments and also for another Tbird that i have worked on. So they will never be TOO loose as you mention, unless they are set that way with shim sizing.
Or a possibility for the exhaust valves , they may become "loose' , gap increases, possibly due to carbon build up between valve and seat.

It may be the case that as you have done so many miles on your bike that you would not notice a slight loss in power, again when I have noticed a power difference after valve adjustment it is only in the mid range, with a slightly better throttle response, nothing outstanding.

I think for most of us a valve check is mandatory, perhaps at 40000kms intervals, not at 20000kms as recommended, but this is personal choice and only my opinion.

 
Experience is something you get just after you needed it
1600,Foran Razorbacks, Meerkat bypass, Dyno tune, real headlight,plenty of chrome,switchblade pegs, Hagon Nitro shocks & Ikon progressive fork springs etc. Scorpion Western Low handlebars. PH adjustable fork caps.
 Author 
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 Leethal 
Zeus
Reg. Date : 24/01/2011
Posts : 6,407
Location :  Australia
Posted : 30 Oct 2017 - 09:30   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: DrMooman)
 
Daniel in the video the chap mentions removing the throttle bodies to get to the hose clamps for the top coolant tube removal. This is not necessary, I think I loosened the bottom clamp and it came out quite easily. I put a little grease inside the rubber hose on install to help the hose locate over the alloy fitting. i always use a 1/4 drive socket on a long extension to do these clamps, not a screw driver.

 
Experience is something you get just after you needed it
1600,Foran Razorbacks, Meerkat bypass, Dyno tune, real headlight,plenty of chrome,switchblade pegs, Hagon Nitro shocks & Ikon progressive fork springs etc. Scorpion Western Low handlebars. PH adjustable fork caps.
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 daz 
Zeus
Reg. Date : 12/05/2009
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Location :  United States
Posted : 30 Oct 2017 - 13:31   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: Leethal)
 

Leethal wrote:

daz wrote:

There have been threads about a clunk on startup, does no one recall that? But it had nothing to do with this proceedure, it was just something some people have had and no one ever diagnosed it if i recall correctly. I had it myself. Nasty hard cluck when the engine started to fire like someone just slammed the cylinder head with a hammer. I had it for about a year or 2 intermittently, then it just went away completely about a year ago.


Yes there has been threads, I mentioned that above, if you search clunk on start up it will bring up two.

As far as I am concerned, and I think Peter as well, OUR clunk was caused by what I have mentioned above. Mine was worse than Pete's perhaps because the engine had not done as many kms as his. Using the correct method, it has never returned.




I saw that, but didn't you say it was caused by doing a valve adjust and doing something wrong that leads to that? because mine was only adjusted by mickey cohen who's the USA lead triumph tech and does all the work on their demo fleet. Plus he adjusted the valves at 24k and this started at probably somewhere around 40-50k.

 
2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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 davetac1 
Thunderbird
Reg. Date : 06/09/2010
Posts : 8,379
Location : Haverhill, Ma., United States
Posted : 30 Oct 2017 - 17:58   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: Leethal)
 
Leethal wrote:

Dave in my opinion you should be hearing ticking sounds from the top end, (you mention that yours is very quiet), the valves, as they wear the seats move upwards, closing the gap between shim and cam lobe. This has been my experience for my last three adjustments and also for another Tbird that i have worked on. So they will never be TOO loose as you mention, unless they are set that way with shim sizing.
Or a possibility for the exhaust valves , they may become "loose' , gap increases, possibly due to carbon build up between valve and seat.

It may be the case that as you have done so many miles on your bike that you would not notice a slight loss in power, again when I have noticed a power difference after valve adjustment it is only in the mid range, with a slightly better throttle response, nothing outstanding.

I think for most of us a valve check is mandatory, perhaps at 40000kms intervals, not at 20000kms as recommended, but this is personal choice and only my opinion.




My motor is not quiet due to those fuckin cast pistons,yet only has a slight valve train noise which is normal and something you wanna hear,[it's better to hear a little valve train noise,then NOT] but not enough to require any valve inspection or adjustment! It still has the same power,if not more, then it had when I bought it new.But the motor noise has quieted somewhat from new because,shortly after I bought this machine,and discovered that it used synthetic oil,I started using my 15/40 Dino oil [non synthethic]and THAT ALONE,made a difference in internal engine noise,which included the valve train!!

I was using that same oil [Dino] in the last three machines I owned [before I got the Tbird] racking up close to 3/4 of a million trouble free miles,and without any oil related problems!!! Experience IS a great teacher,and experience,is something that I have a lot of. But then again,brains are NOT included in that statement. Dave!!!

Post edited by davetac1 on 30 Oct 2017 - 18:31
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 AZCactus 
Taranis
Reg. Date : 01/05/2013
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Posted : 30 Oct 2017 - 18:04   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: davetac1)
 

davetac1 wrote:

...My motor is not quiet....

have you considered a different oil.


 
2009 Thunderbird 1700 Big Bore

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 davetac1 
Thunderbird
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Posted : 30 Oct 2017 - 18:37   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: AZCactus)
 
The motor noise I hear is from the CAST PISTONS and there is really not much I can do about it unless I change em to forged units. That is,IF THEY ARE AVAILABLE!! But I really don't think I wanna do that either due to the cost factor, not to mention that I want one more new bike before I leave this life.But maybe in my next life!!

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 daz 
Zeus
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Posted : 30 Oct 2017 - 19:26   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: davetac1)
 
Speaking of which, i just filled mine with Rotela for the first time. Of course not the cheap stuff Dave uses, but T6 syth. Cost about $20 less than bike synth. We'll see how it works but i haven't put many mile on it yet. If i notice no difference to the bad this will be my go to oil.

 
2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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 Leethal 
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Reg. Date : 24/01/2011
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Posted : 31 Oct 2017 - 07:24   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: davetac1)
 
Some good reading on pistons



Link

 
Experience is something you get just after you needed it
1600,Foran Razorbacks, Meerkat bypass, Dyno tune, real headlight,plenty of chrome,switchblade pegs, Hagon Nitro shocks & Ikon progressive fork springs etc. Scorpion Western Low handlebars. PH adjustable fork caps.
Post edited by Leethal on 31 Oct 2017 - 07:30
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 fab 
Thor
Reg. Date : 12/10/2009
Posts : 2,515
Location : wyong, nsw, Australia
Posted : 31 Oct 2017 - 18:24   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: Leethal)
 

Leethal wrote:

Some good reading on pistons



Link




 

Remember, soft cocks hang around all life long, hard ones come and go

ahh f**k im deep
 Author 
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 Leethal 
Zeus
Reg. Date : 24/01/2011
Posts : 6,407
Location :  Australia
Posted : 31 Oct 2017 - 21:36   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: fab)
 


 
Experience is something you get just after you needed it
1600,Foran Razorbacks, Meerkat bypass, Dyno tune, real headlight,plenty of chrome,switchblade pegs, Hagon Nitro shocks & Ikon progressive fork springs etc. Scorpion Western Low handlebars. PH adjustable fork caps.
 Author 
Post  
 Leethal 
Zeus
Reg. Date : 24/01/2011
Posts : 6,407
Location :  Australia
Posted : 31 Oct 2017 - 21:39   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: daz)
 

daz wrote:

Leethal wrote:

daz wrote:

There have been threads about a clunk on startup, does no one recall that? But it had nothing to do with this proceedure, it was just something some people have had and no one ever diagnosed it if i recall correctly. I had it myself. Nasty hard cluck when the engine started to fire like someone just slammed the cylinder head with a hammer. I had it for about a year or 2 intermittently, then it just went away completely about a year ago.


Yes there has been threads, I mentioned that above, if you search clunk on start up it will bring up two.

As far as I am concerned, and I think Peter as well, OUR clunk was caused by what I have mentioned above. Mine was worse than Pete's perhaps because the engine had not done as many kms as his. Using the correct method, it has never returned.




I saw that, but didn't you say it was caused by doing a valve adjust and doing something wrong that leads to that? because mine was only adjusted by mickey cohen who's the USA lead triumph tech and does all the work on their demo fleet. Plus he adjusted the valves at 24k and this started at probably somewhere around 40-50k.


Yes I did say that, as already mentioned, it's been my expierence it's from not using the correct method of holding the crankshaft while tensioning the rotor bolt. Your noise may have been different.

 
Experience is something you get just after you needed it
1600,Foran Razorbacks, Meerkat bypass, Dyno tune, real headlight,plenty of chrome,switchblade pegs, Hagon Nitro shocks & Ikon progressive fork springs etc. Scorpion Western Low handlebars. PH adjustable fork caps.
 Author 
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 DrMooman 
Set
Reg. Date : 09/08/2016
Posts : 73
Location : Wales, Wales, United Kingdom
Posted : 04 Nov 2017 - 09:09   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: davetac1)
 
The clunk- is the moment i start the engine. not always but most times. I'm convinced it is coming form the clutch side- it is like something is hitting a gear or something. It does somewhat minimise it when i put it in 1st, clutch in and start but it is often still there- if that doesn't clarify then i will record it and put it on you tube somehow

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 Leethal 
Zeus
Reg. Date : 24/01/2011
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Location :  Australia
Posted : 04 Nov 2017 - 09:17   Post title : Re: Valve Clearance Check and Shim adjustment (Re: DrMooman)
 
Mine was a really heavy solid sound. Have your valves been done before and by whom. If it's the same noise then when you do your valves and you do that rotor retaining bolt torque properly the noise will go away.

 
Experience is something you get just after you needed it
1600,Foran Razorbacks, Meerkat bypass, Dyno tune, real headlight,plenty of chrome,switchblade pegs, Hagon Nitro shocks & Ikon progressive fork springs etc. Scorpion Western Low handlebars. PH adjustable fork caps.
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